At the February 25 Senate Appropriations Committee hearing on DEP’s budget request, Senators discussed a variety of topics, but came back to talking about speeding permit reviews, the Governor’s Lightning Energy Plan and related issues like RGGI [Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative] most often.

Senate Republican Leader Sen. Joe Pittman (R-Indiana) started the questioning by suggesting to Acting Secretary Jessica Shirley she be “very aggressive” in firing DEP employees he considered “intractable.”

Lightning Energy Plan

Sen. Scott Martin (R-Lancaster), Majority Chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee, and Acting Secretary Shirley had the longest exchange of the hearing on the Governor’s Lightning Energy Plan.

Sen. Martin started by saying, “In terms of his Lightning Plan, how will his lightning plan, especially given the warning signs that PJM [Interconnection] has been putting up for a while now about what our [electric generation] capacity is, and especially in an era where we have a lot of data processing centers, which are huge energy drawers being added to our grid.”

“What kind of insight does the Lightning Plan give into addressing the baseload supply concerns that have been raised by PJM, that's the backbone of our grid?”

Acting Secretary Shirley responded by saying, “Sorry, I have to snicker a little bit because I think PJM has not helped this problem with their [energy] capacity auction and the way that they've reviewed new [electric] generation [Read more here].

“It takes a long time for new projects to get in the [PJM] queue and get approved [to connect to the grid]. And that's not environmental permitting, that's the PJM process.

“So the Governor worked through with PJM to develop a new process so that projects that are most ready will have an expedited permitting for interconnection.  [Read more here]

“And part of, I'd say the biggest part of the Lightning Plan is the RESET [siting] board that will help new generation be built.

“So I referenced this earlier, there's always a lot of NIMBYism [Not In My Backyard] whenever it comes to electricity generation projects. They tend to be large.

“Some communities are begging for them, while other communities say we don't want to see them.

“What the RESET board can do is help to prioritize regions and areas where it makes the most sense for generation to be sited, to be located.

“And I think that's one of the biggest opportunities here with the Lightning Plan and specifically generation.

“We have regular conversations with data centers that are looking to locate in Pennsylvania, our energy sources and our grid and the proximity to the grid of a lot of these sites is very appealing to them.

“So we do have to make sure that we're going to have enough [electric] generation for residents and consumers, but a lot of them are actually looking at the Crane Center [Three Mile Island Nuclear Plant] to use energy behind the grid.

“So they're not specifically pulling from the grid, but they're taking electricity generation or creating electricity generation on site.

“So I think most of the ones that we've talked to are looking at that for themselves, creating energy for themselves. But that still doesn't get past some of the interconnection issues that we've seen from PJM.”

Sen. Martin continued by saying, “PJM has been putting up the warning sign and has noted that most of the new projects that have been in the queue were renewable energy projects. But they were quick to point out that the vast majority of them don't come to fruition.”

“But one thing they've been very clear about is the fact that baseload capacity projects, given the uncertainty in Pennsylvania's market, which is the 800 pound gorilla of their grid, is causing them the biggest concerns.

“And those kind of policies have been coming from Washington, D.C. and within Pennsylvania by politicians over the last decade, which have caused a huge lack of new investment in baseload capacity.

“And the last time I checked [is] any form of renewable or intermittent source of energy, considered to be baseload capacity?”

Acting Secretary Shirley noted, “Not baseload capacity, but if you couple it with storage, you can use it all the time.”

Sen. Martin went on to say, “Unfortunately, we're now in an environment where we have other states that are within that same region, that are shutting down places like Brandon Shores [Power Plant], and now they want to build new sources of hydro [electric generation] in Sen. Phillips-Hill district so they can send electric lines from Pennsylvania down into Maryland to make up for their lack of responsibility and baseload capacity.

“Yes, it's wonderful that TMI [Three Mile Island Nuclear Power Plant] is opening up and it's great for the jobs that are going to be occurring here locally, but in the past, that actually powered over a million homes and businesses as part of our baseload capacity.

“This is all being purchased by Microsoft. That's not going to help in this.

“My point is, is that the uncertainty here, and I think a lot of us are done with the talk, if the Governor truly wants to engage with the General Assembly, he should remove his appeal because he will never have the executive power to implement a tax [RGGI proposal in the Senator’s view].  [Read more here]

“He'll never have the power to enter into an intrastate compact agreement, which we [General Assembly] have historically approved.

“I heard Senator Street talking about the alternative [energy] portfolio standards and other things.

“Come and engage us, that's a law that gets passed.

“But meanwhile, we're the ones that are losing jobs every time we see a generation plant closure, we're the ones getting warnings of rolling blackouts, which we have.

“I truly, truly hope that we are not in a position that Pennsylvania will finally take action related to the reliability of our grid and the cost to our consumers is when we have a failure, because we all know and history shows, recent history, when the grid fails, people die  [Read more here.].

“It doesn't have to be that way.

“There's no single issue that's more important to Pennsylvania. It's economic turnaround and it's demographic challenges, then energy, and I really hope that we can find some common ground around that.”

Acting Secretary Shirley said in response, “I have said to developers all over, interested in locating in Pennsylvania, the role of the Department of Environmental Protection is to issue permits.

“We will issue a permit, and we will issue a legal defensible permit, and we will defend the permit.

“We are not preventing anybody from locating here, from developing new electricity generation.

“We are seeing it across the country, across PJM. I think when you look at the entire PJM queue, there is only one baseload energy facility being proposed, and that's in West Virginia.

“We're not seeing an influx of development in Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, West Virginia.

“It's not a Pennsylvania problem. I think it's an entirety of PJM’s problem.

“If anybody wants to locate in Pennsylvania, we will permit the facility.”

Other Issues

Here are a few other issues discussed during the hearing.

Plugging Hole In Oil & Gas Regulatory Program Budget: In response to a question from Sen. Elder Vogel (R-Beaver) about DEP’s oil and gas well plugging budget, Acting Secretary Shirley said, “The well plugging fund that we're asking for is for the operations of the entire Office of Oil and Gas Management. So it's not just for well plugging, it's permitting, inspections.

“And typically, that well plugging fund, it's really just in name. It's been funded by fines, fees, and penalties. And the permit fees have typically been the bulk of that fund.”

“What we have seen over the last five years is that oil and gas operators are becoming more efficient, which is great. It's great for environmental protection. They're able to drill longer laterals, which means they're drilling less wells overall.

“So when we did our last fee increase, I think we projected 1,800 to 2,000 wells a year. And I believe last year we had around 600 wells permitted.

“So that significantly reduces the amount of funding that's coming into the well plugging fund, which supports the entire oil and gas program.”  [Read more here.]

‘Insufficient ‘Permit Applications Holding Up Permit Reviews: Sen. Rosemary Brown (R-Lackawanna) asked, “What do you believe is the largest obstacle in not having efficient permitting?” 

Acting Secretary Shirley said, “From what I hear from my folks, it is insufficient permit applications.

“Just like county conservation districts are not created equal, environmental consultants are also not created equal.

“So we see some that are very good that fly through the process, that don't create a lot of work for us, and then we see some that probably are looking for increased billable hours and know how to play the game.

“We are currently thinking through the potential for a program that recognizes those consultants who are very good at what they do.

“We have some pilot programs right now. I reference them in the budget testimony, so I won't go into them because, again, I could talk for hours about this, but one of the things that we want to get out of this pilot is identifying a process that restricts which consultants would be able to use those programs, those pilot programs.”

“We would like to scale them statewide, but essentially what it is is currently a permit comes in, there's typically two rounds of deficiencies.

“So there's a deficiency, they come back, they correct it, there's usually another deficiency letter, but with the really good ones, they might only get one deficiency letter or no deficiency letters.

“And that's really what we're after is no deficiencies and no deficiency timelines, no back and forth.

“So if we can identify those consultants that are really good and they can go through this expedited process, I think it will be better for applicants if they then choose to use a consultant that is better and can use this expedited process.”

Firing ‘Intractable’ DEP Employees, Permit Reviews: Republican Leader Sen. Joe Pittman (R-Indiana) encouraged Acting Secretary Shirley to be “very aggressive” in firing employees that are found to be “intractable” during a discussion of speeding up permit reviews.

Sen. Pittman asked, “Roughly how many of your employees are at-will employees? “

Acting Secretary Shirley- “At-will? So non-civil service. Maybe like a hundred, maybe less.”

Sen. Pittman-- “How many employees do you have?”

Acting Secretary Shirley-- “We have a little over 2,600.”

Sen. Pittman-- “So you're telling me that your discretion to deal with employees that you find being intractable is limited?”

Acting Secretary Shirley-- “No. If we have a problem employee, we are able to fire them. But there are civil service rules and union rules of course, but we do fire folks who are problematic, who aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing.”

Sen. Pittman-- “We're lacking patience at this point. People are very frustrated. I think what we did with the SPEED [permitting] legislation is important. It was helpful. But anecdotally what I hear on the street, not just in my district, but throughout the state, is there is still an immense amount of frustration in getting things through the bureaucracy and through red tape.”

“And the reason why I asked about conservation districts is because I think it's important for us to recognize it's not all just DEP all the time. And as you pointed out, conservation districts are locally controlled. And of course everybody wants local control until they don't like local control,” said Sen. Pittman.

“So I hope that you use the levers of your authority to make sure that the conservation districts are doing what they need to do to implement the SPEED initiative and other permits, and also your employees as well,” Sen. Pittman said.

Acting Secretary Shirley explained, “I think we have a really great story to tell, both with the PAyback program and the SPEED [Permitting]  program.  [Read more here.]

“So November, 2023, the PAyback program went into effect, and that is basically a money-back guarantee.

“It provides certainty and predictability for permit applicants in Pennsylvania, that if they provide us with an application, they're guaranteed to get their permit or at least a decision on a permit by a certain timeline.

“Since that time, we have issued over 50,000 permits and have not refunded a single permit application.”

“The SPEED Act I think is a really great example of collaboration between the Legislature and DEP, and we are fully committed to implementing this effort.

“We have received 30 participating firms that would like to participate as a reviewer.  We have 84 qualified professionals approved. So we are building the list for those four program areas, and then we hope that very shortly contracts will be issued.

“And we should be able to begin implementing, fully implementing that program later this spring and early into the summertime.”

[DEP also eliminated the Oil and Gas Program permit backlog and reduced the general backlog of permits in DEP by 75% as of last November.  [Read more here.]

[In her budget testimony, Acting Secretary Shirley also said, “I’d like to thank our team of more than 2,600 dedicated public servants who work every day to demonstrate this mission and exemplify our values like public service, environmental stewardship, and commitment to customers.”]

[Editor’s Note: In an announcement of the results of initiatives to speed up DEP permitting last November, Gov. Shapiro said--

[“Special thanks to Secretary Shirley of the Department of Environmental Protection who joins us here today in the front row.  DEP, reduced the permit backlog by 75%-- 75%. That is extraordinary.   [Read more here]

[“Now, listen, I've been around a while here working in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Folks love to blame DEP for every issue they have when they're building a project.

[“You can't blame Secretary Shirley anymore.

[“She is moving at the speed of business and getting it done, and we are grateful to you for your commitment on that.”]

You Aren’t Going To Save The World: Republican Leader Sen. Joe Pittman (R-Indiana) had these parting comments for Acting Secretary Shirley-- “I think your focus on the culture, your focus on administering the agency is really important.

“I don't mean to burst your bubble or any of your predecessors, but you're not going to save the planet.

“Your job is to make sure the agency runs, it runs well, and it's responsive to the constituents and ultimately where none of us have to bother you to get the job done. So thank you.”

Click Here to watch a video of the hearing.

Click Here for a copy of DEP’s budget testimony.

Resource Links:

-- Senate DEP Budget Hearing Focuses On Permit Reviews; Governor’s Lightning Energy Plan; Bringing On More Baseload Power Generation; Firing ‘Intractable’ DEP Employees  [PaEN]

-- DEP House Budget Hearing: Democrat Rep. Vitali Raises Concerns About Whether DEP Has The Resources To Fulfill Its Mission When Workloads Have Increased Dramatically  [PaEN]

-- House DEP Budget Hearing: Republican Rep. Kail Says It Is ‘Outrageous’ DEP Has A Process Where Citizens Can Petition Their Government For Changes In Regulations  [PaEN]

-- DEP Budget Testimony: DEP Moving At The Speed Of Business; Lightning Energy Plan; Most Inspections; Commitment To Environmental Justice  [PaEN]

-- What The Shale Gas Industry Is Leaving Behind:  DEP Issues Violations To 2 More Shale Gas Companies For Abandoning, Not Plugging 6 Shale Gas Wells In Butler, Greene Counties  [PaEN]

-- Gov. Shapiro’s Budget Includes Energy Plan; Funding To Make-up Deficit In Oil & Gas Program; New State Park, Trail Initiative; Over $6.2 Billion In Federal Funding At Risk For DEP, DCNR, PennVEST  [PaEN]

-- Gov. Shapiro Announced  Federal Funds Identified In State Lawsuit Are No Longer Frozen - Mine Reclamation, Conventional Well Plugging, Water Infrastructure  [PaEN] 

-- Chesapeake Bay Foundation: President's Proposed 65% Cut In EPA Budget, Coming Mass Layoffs Spell Disaster For Chesapeake Bay [PaEN]

-- DEP Reduces Permit Backlog By 75%, Completely Eliminates Backlog For Oil & Gas Permits; You Can’t Blame DEP Anymore For Project Delays  [PaEN] 

-- PA Senate Republican Leader: ‘Every Consumer Of Electricity In This Commonwealth Is Going To Pay More;’ ‘What You’re Going To Face Is Going To Be Really Unpleasant’  [PaEN]

[Posted: February 25, 2025]

3/3/2025